Will 2D animation die?

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Post by ShyViolet » February 7th, 2007, 8:06 pm

I'm really, really glad DW didn't jump on the mo-cap bandwagon. :wink:

(although I think I did read that YEARS ago they were thinking about it, even trying out stuff with the first Shrek as mo-cap, then abandoning it thank goodness. :?)

Hopefully, classical animation will hit again and there will be demand for more features.
Yes, let's hope! :)
On Bob Z...he's gone from being my most favorite director to a so-so, and far from pushing the boundaries, he's becoming stuck in a rut.
Yeah....why is he so enamoured with Mo-Cap all of a sudden? I mean the guy worked with Richard Williams on Roger Rabbit for crying out loud. (??) That movie was true art, how could he turn to something like Polar Express and treat it like it was the same thing?

(Some have said that live-action directors like motion capture because it's MUCH, MUCH faster than regular animation. Maybe Bob Z still has bad memories of all the hassle he went through on RR?? J/K :roll:)
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Post by ShyViolet » February 7th, 2007, 9:27 pm

Just a theoretical question:

Does Pixar have the right to leave Disney if they want? Could Steve Jobs, being one of the largest shareholders, help them split off again if they wanted to?

Or are they "stuck" at Disney forever?
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Post by Ben » February 8th, 2007, 6:15 am

They're "stuck".

Jobs could offer them an extortionate amount to take it away again, or could start up his own studio and lure away key talent, but Pixar is now a totally owned piece of Disney.

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Post by ShyViolet » February 8th, 2007, 7:13 pm

If you're a student at, or live near this animation school, Don Hahn is going to speak there! :)

http://www.animationnation.com/ubb/ulti ... 1;t=012076

(He might also critique some people's work! :D )


I wonder if he will say anything about whether or not he's planning to return to WDFA? :?:
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Post by Ben » February 9th, 2007, 11:03 am

Someone <I>has</I> to ask! :)

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Post by ShyViolet » February 9th, 2007, 6:20 pm

GO DON! :)
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Post by ShyViolet » February 12th, 2007, 12:34 pm

I also thought this was a very interesting post from someone at JHM:
supersally said:
As a former employee of WDFA, this motion capture technology adds insult to injury. The motion capture for Polar Express and Monster House was awful!! Those characters are dead.... walking zombies. Why WDFA would choose to go that way is beyond insult, as there are so many talented animators at Disney that can produce work of incomparible quality to something like motion capture. Secondly, it is important to realize that Andy Serkis is not completely responsible for the performance of King Kong or Gollum. Alot of Gollum was, dare I say it, hand animated with the performance of the animators, not him. The animators were not given their performance credit for much of that work, and it is that misguided notion that Andy did it all, that leads to this type of support for motion capture technology. The best performances for Gollum and King were done the good ole fashioned way..... with the animator as an actor, keying, and doing all the facial work as well.

Secondly, I find it extremely disturbing that WDFA is going back to doing all traditional animation. Whether we animators like it or not, technology is here to stay. It is increasingly important that WDFA embrace technology as part of its animation process, finding ways of combining 2D and 3D together to tell the story. WDFA leaves itself in a vulnerable position, if it thinks it should replace all of its animation talent with motion capture, and live in a bubble with a handful of traditional animators working in a turret doing 2D. The survivor is the one who embraces new technology and find ways of combining it..... not pretending it doesnt exist. John and Ed are leaving Disney in the dust..... making sure Pixar is positioned for the future, while WDFA is left in a time warp. The fact that people like Chris Sanders and Glenn are not really being heard by John is an example of this. Pixar needs to embrace the talent at WDFA, not throw it out in favor of its own position. Disney acquired Pixar...... it is looking like Pixar acquired Disney. Maybe it is time Disney takes the reigns back on who acquired who, and start being the leader again..... in tech integration and reminding people that motion capture is NO SUBSTITUTE for a great animator and actor.

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Post by YCougar » February 12th, 2007, 10:52 pm

Hm. The claim that Disney going back to 2D is not "embracing technology" and putting the company in a "time warp" rubs me the wrong way. Just because it's hand-drawn makes it technologically backwards? It means we're trying to pretend computer animation doesn't exist? I mean, I seriously doubt King Lasseter the Terrible :roll: is saying "THOU SHALT NOT USE COMPUTERS ANYMORE" ...

I like technologically backwards, then, I suppose... so long as it comes with a good story. :|

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Post by ShyViolet » February 12th, 2007, 11:28 pm

Hm. The claim that Disney going back to 2D is not "embracing technology" and putting the company in a "time warp" rubs me the wrong way. Just because it's hand-drawn makes it technologically backwards? It means we're trying to pretend computer animation doesn't exist?

I understand your points, YCougar. I think returning WDFA to 2d--at least in some capacity--is a recipe for success. Eventually. But it shouldn't be too "rushed" in that, right now, technologically, the most successful animated films on the market (let's face it) have been 3d--Cars, Incredibles, Shrek 2, Over the Hedge, Ice Age, Happy Feet, etc....

The reason Pixar does 3d films is partly due to artistic reasons and ALSO because they know it has been successful financially and will probably continue to be for quite some time. Yes, it's story, story, story--but medium does have a part to play in a film's success. That's why Pixar does 3d. That's why they started doing it in the 1980s. They constantly stress it's unimportant and that they would just as easily do 2d if the right story came along--c'mon, at this point, how many people still believe that? :roll:


If 2d is so great, why are they suddenly foisting it on WDFA while they get to do the cutting-edge money/maker CGI and WDFA goes back to the relatively outdated (if beautiful, classical art form) traditional animation, which, WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, has lost money in recent flicks. Yes, most of us agree that traditional animation is irreplaceable and should continue no matter what, but (most of us) don't work for and/or run animation studios, or have to worry about those studios losing money which would potentially affect our livelihood/employment.

Unfortunately the entertainment business is a business--and forcing a studio to go back to the risky art form which has lost money while your studio continues with the art form that brings in the bucks......well....
I mean, I seriously doubt King Lasseter the Terrible Rolling Eyes is saying "THOU SHALT NOT USE COMPUTERS ANYMORE"

It's true, very few of us know for sure exactly how much WDFA is being "forced" to go back to 2d rather than make more 3d....(just like we didn't know how much the directors of Meet the Robinsons were "encouraged" to re-do their film...:?) but we do know that John and Ed have made their wishes known, and that what they wish is, barring the CGI flicks already in production like AD, MTR and Rupunzal, Disney--2d. Pixar--3d.

(Pixar, when they first became animation superstars, were known as "those computer animation geniuses." Now, even with their superior film making skills, they're not the only game in town anymore. Naturally, they feel threatened.)
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Post by Meg » February 13th, 2007, 5:45 pm

the most successful animated films on the market (let's face it) have been 3d--Cars, Incredibles, Shrek 2, Over the Hedge, Ice Age, Happy Feet, etc....
Keep in mind there was only one 2D film released in the US this year, and it was undermarketed. ;)
I mean, I seriously doubt King Lasseter the Terrible is saying "THOU SHALT NOT USE COMPUTERS ANYMORE" ...
LOL! :lol:

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Post by ShyViolet » February 13th, 2007, 8:59 pm

I mean, I seriously doubt King Lasseter the Terrible is saying "THOU SHALT NOT USE COMPUTERS ANYMORE" ...


LOL! Laughing


OK, so he "encouraged" them not to do any more CGI after Rupunzal, he "encouraged" them to re-do MTR, "encouraged" Alan Menken to leave Frog Princess and for them to re-do it in a New Orleans style, he "encouraged" Chris Sanders to leave American Dog because he didn't like Chris' ideas. Maybe it's hard to picture him doing these things, but we pretty much know that this is also the same guy who looked over the work done on Gnomeo and said: "Why are we making this picture? Well, we're not."

:roll:
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Post by Kinoo » February 14th, 2007, 4:21 am

That's kind of funny how we can judge a guy based on quotes from internet from which we'l never know if he really said it or not!

As for Frog Princess, I don't remember anyone saying it was du to be a classical fairytale.... but anyway, keep talking.
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Post by Meg » February 14th, 2007, 7:17 am

and for them to re-do it in a New Orleans style,
Uh, how do we know that wasn't Ron and Jon's choice?

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Post by ShyViolet » February 14th, 2007, 8:08 am

That's kind of funny how we can judge a guy based on quotes from internet from which we'l never know if he really said it or not!
True, but that's all we have to go on for anything...that's how people judged Eisner during the SaveDisney days....remember all of his "quotes" that they uploaded every day? That's how EVERYONE is judged nowadays--through the internet. If we want to say, "OK, we can't know if ANYTHING is true, it's all heresay..." then who knows if all those "dumb" things Pres. Bush supposadely did or didn't say are true? (I'm not trying to support Bush by this statment, just make a point.)

Why are we even on this forum if nothing on the Internet is trustworthy??


As for Frog Princess, I don't remember anyone saying it was du to be a classical fairytale.... but anyway, keep talking.
Actually, I think Ben said it..

http://www.animated-news.com/forum/view ... c&start=15

And as long as someone's not making nasty, personal remarks about someone and talking solely on their public decisions/actions, why is that a big deal? Like Dan said, people in animation/Disney do it all the time....

...I'm not insulting Lassetter personally, or anything about him. Just questioning his decisions. I don't see why that's suddenly such a big deal. :roll:

If I offended you Kinoo, I'm sorry, since I know you're very big Pixar fan. But this is a public forum and people state their opinions, it's not a Pixar fansite.

Anyway, sorry if this comes off harsh....I don't mean any offense. Like I said, i'm just stating how I feel.

Uh, how do we know that wasn't Ron and Jon's choice?
Well, of course we don't. But since a jazz tale is about 100 miles from where they originally started, we have to assume that they were "persuaded" to change the film.
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Post by ShyViolet » February 14th, 2007, 9:05 am

Thanks to Charles at AN, here's some awesome pics of Don Hahn in action! (wow, lots of "n"s there. :?)

http://www.animationnation.com/ubb/ulti ... 1;t=012076
You can’t just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!

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